Dendrobium Mousmee

Submitted by wellsy on Sat, 05/07/2008 - 22:01.

Dendrobium

Dendrobium Mousmee

Hybrid formula: Dendrobium furcatum (syn. D. bronckartii) x Dendrobium thyrsiflorum

Registered by V. in 1941 (Who is V.? Good question....Do you have any leads?)

This is a truly spectacular Dendrobium hybrid which is from Indian parentage and has a load of mystery in it's background.

Below is something I have just found which has only added to my confusion about this wonderful hybrids parentage.
The RHS gives us the below information:-

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Dendrobium amabile Schltr., Repert. Spec. Nov. Regni Veg. 8: 505 (1910), nom. illeg.
This name is a synonym.

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Accepted Name: Dendrobium furcatum Reinw. ex Lindl., J. Proc. Linn. Soc., Bot. 3: 13 (1859).

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Family: Orchidaceae

Homotypic Synonyms:
Dendrobium celebicum A.D.Hawkes, Orquídea (Rio de Janeiro) 24: 114 (1962).
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But also gives us:-

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Dendrobium bronckartii De Wild., Gard. Chron., III, 39: 380 (1906).
This name is a synonym.

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Accepted Name: Dendrobium amabile (Lour.) O'Brien, Gard. Chron., III, 46: 393 (1909).
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Does anyone have any further information to help me out here?

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So ok

Submitted by bernabu on Sun, 17/02/2008 - 23:25.

How do we follow that? amazing contrast of colours.
bernabu

Gordon Botting

Submitted by wellsy on Mon, 18/02/2008 - 18:21.

I'll take that as a compliment...yes? Thanks but the grower deserves the biggest compliments. Gordon Botting of Gordon's Oz Orchids (Queensland).

Regards wellsy

compliment

Submitted by bernabu on Mon, 18/02/2008 - 19:33.

Sure is a compliment, I would love one of these in my collection, it's one of those orchids that you would just have to find space for ( even if your greenhouse was crammed full).
Regards bernabu

get rid of somthin'

Submitted by wellsy on Mon, 18/02/2008 - 20:21.

absolutely...get rid of somthin' else to make room for this cross!

and by the way...it would need to be a largish candidate to get rid of as these grow to be quite a good sized plant.

Regards wellsy

Mousmee parentage

Submitted by mcorchid on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 20:09.

The parentage of Den. Mousmee above shows Den. furcatum syn. Den. bronckartii, this linking of the synonym is the cause for some confusion.

Den. bronckartii is not a synonym for Den. furcatum and has lead to a further path of synonym chasing with no relevance to Mousmee.

The parentage of Den. Mousmee is Den. furcatum x Den. thrysiflorum, registered by V. 1-1-1941.

Bill

Thanks Bill

Submitted by wellsy on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 21:25.

Thanks Bill

My confusion commences way back when initially I was led to believe the parents of D. Mousmee were D. amabile X D. thysiflorum. Later I was led to believe that D. amabile was a synonym of D. bronckartii......yikes these orchid names just go on and on!

So when trying to get this straight over the past day or so I happen upon two RHS references to D. amabile (from two different authors no less - see above in the original post) one referring to it being the accepted name for D. bronckartii, the other stating it was a synonym for D. furcatum. Aaaarghhh!!!

Oh, by the way....if we accept (as we must) D. Mousmee as being a hybrid with Dendrobium furcatum x Dendrobium thyrsiflorum then it is also not correct to state D. Mousmee is of only Indian background.

Dendrobium furcatum Reinw. ex Lindl., J. Proc. Linn. Soc., Bot. 3: 13 (1859).
Distribution: Sulawesi

PS: I'll sort out the messy listing above when we all settle on the facts here.

Regards wellsy

Spot on

Submitted by mcorchid on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:11.

Well done Steve, you are spot on with your summary above but don't rest yet.

I think there is more to the Mousmee Mystery.

First part--

I was lead to believe Den. furcatum had not been seen for 100 years so how can we have 3 registered hybrids with it as a parent??

Den. Mousmee registered by V. in 1941, Den. Rosy Clusters registered by Kawamura in 2001, both as seed parents, and Den. Hikaru Genji registered by Furuse in 1985 using furcatum as a pollen parent.

Second part--

Is there some confusion between Den. furcatum 1859 and Den. amabile 1909???

Third part--

The identity of the Mysterious V.

Regards Bill

another story

Submitted by wellsy on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:15.

From my memory (which is up to sh.. anyway....but thats another story) it was D. amabile which was supposed to be extinct.....go figure!

Regards wellsy

in the fridge???

Submitted by wellsy on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:17.

Oh....perhaps they kept the pollen in the fridge???? LOL

Regards wellsy

amabile

Submitted by mcorchid on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:23.

I've grown Mousmee for years and this is the first time I have come across any mention of amabile, never heard of it before.

In the fridge for 100 years, I don't think so. lol

Bill

trouble finding a photo

Submitted by wellsy on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:24.

No wonder I have been having trouble finding a photo of D. furcatum.

Regards wellsy

Don't think you will

Submitted by mcorchid on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:29.

find a photo of furcatum but there is one of Den. amabile at IOSPE which I was surprised to find.

Bill

was this the one???

Submitted by wellsy on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:32.

was this the one??? http://www.orchidspecies.com/denamabile.htm

funny how much it bears a resemblance to D. Mousmee....hmmm!

Regards wellsy

That's it

Submitted by mcorchid on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 22:44.

There is a difference in the lip.

Now you can start to see what I mean about possible confusion between furcatum and amabile.

Bill

line drawing

Submitted by wellsy on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 23:00.

We need at least a description of D. furcatum....better yet a line drawing would be excellent.

Regards wellsy

Second part

Submitted by mcorchid on Sun, 06/07/2008 - 23:23.

Den. furcatum - Sulawesi 1859
Den. amabile- Vietnam and possibly Hainan Island, China 1909

If you get out the old atlas and put a dot in the centre of the South China Sea, draw lines to each of the three locations above you will notice similar distance to all three.

Around the dot in the middle you will find the Paracel Islands, a major fishing ground for the region for centuries, with fishing comes trade. I suggest this could be a plausible explanation for duel identification.

Bill

Third part

Submitted by mcorchid on Mon, 07/07/2008 - 01:00.

The Mysterious V. - registrant of Mousmee.

V. is no flash in the pan or a misprint by RHS, he was very real. From 1896 to 1957 he registered the following hybrids, 8 Dendrobiums, 11 Cymbidiums, 74 Vandaceous, 147 Oncidium Group and 237 Catleya Alliance.

If you take the time to look up his hybrid registrations you will notice a French connection with his naming of plants.

The French connection took me back to Vietnam and the Paracel Islands. Vietnam became a French Protectorate in 1884 known as French Indochina. The French established a weather station on Pattle Island, part of the Paracel Islands Group in 1932. If V. was French, this would have given him great access to orchids for his Dendrobium and Vandaceous hybrids.

Ok, you have had your history lesson, it's time to go back to France and reveal who I suspect as being the MYSTERY MR. V.

V. registered Den. Boisseyense in 1926, this is a link to an orchid catalogue circa 1933, http://www.meemelink.com/catalogues%20pages/catalogues.Vacherot-Lecoufle...
notice the address Boissy-Saint-Leger??? Boissy is part of the registered name of the Den. above. I think it is a clue even with the 'e' missing, I don't speak French.

I have to be careful here, I cannot say who the Mysterious V. is because I just don't know. Everything I have researched does point me in the direction of Henri Vacherot, the famous French Orchidist.

The time frames fit, Henri Vacherot started the nursery in 1886. The other part of the nursery name, Lecoufle, is his grandson Marcel.

Hope that this has been of some interest to Mousmee lovers, it is a magnificent orchid.

Regards Bill

Henri Vacherot

Submitted by wellsy on Mon, 07/07/2008 - 17:58.

Henri Vacherot seems the likely registrant. Nice detective work once again Bill.

The monicker 'Detective Bill' seems likely to stick!

Regards wellsy

More evidence

Submitted by mcorchid on Mon, 07/07/2008 - 20:15.

I believe this is more undisputed black and white valid evidence that points to V. being Henri Vacherot.

Vacherot - Lecoufle Nursery started by Henri in 1886 and is still operating today.

V. Regos...............................................Vacherot-Lecoufle Regos

Catts..............237..1899-1957.............174..1954-2002
Vandaceous.....74..1896-1956.............386..1956-2002
Onc. Grp.........143..1924-1957.............165..1956-1999
Cyms................11..1915-1955...............45..1956-1989
Dens...................8..1926-1953................2..1981

I think these figures tell their own story.

Bill

'all the above'

Submitted by wellsy on Mon, 07/07/2008 - 17:55.

I concur...So (if I understand you correctly) you think the parent named by the RHS (Den. furcatum) could really be 'all the above'? IE: Den. amabile and Den. broncartii.

Oh yes....this has been of great interest to me...for sure.

Regards wellsy

Not saying that

Submitted by mcorchid on Mon, 07/07/2008 - 21:02.

I'm saying the parent plants of Mousmee are furcatum and thrysiflorum as per RHS Registration.

Forget Den. amabile syn Den. bronckartii, they are not linked to Den. furcatum.

Bill

Well Done!

Submitted by laroche7 on Sun, 10/08/2008 - 14:45.

Congratulations to Bill and Steve, for the detective work and information, provided by the both of you. It does make for some very interesting reading, and answers quite a few questions! BUT also raises a few more questions;
1. It would be great to find out more information, on Den. furcatum!
2. Originally, whom brought in and when, did Den. Mousmee arrive in Australia?
3. Is/was there any different forms and/or varieties, as there definitely seems to be a few different types 'out' there?
The questions, are because I've noticed from my owns plants(sourced from different collector's and nurseries), that, on average, the flower width is about 53-54mm, wheras one plant has a flower width of 60mm!!! Also, on the grapevine, I've heard that there is a polyploid(3N-4N) form.
The reason for the last question, is that a few Den. Mousmee's, coming mainly from the Northern suburbs of Sydney, and claiming to come from, the late Karl Bradford's collection, seem to me, NOT Mousmee's at all, as, they have a shorter bulb habit, and the flowers have no or very little pink/purple hue to the petals! Excuse me, I could be wrong, and there may well be a 'white' form of Den. Mousmee, so if anybody could help with the above queries, I think it would interest alot of people!
laroche7

Mousmee

Submitted by bernabu on Mon, 11/08/2008 - 05:38.

Looking through an old Orchid Review (Jan-Feb 2002, page 32) I came across an image of Dendrobium gratiotissimum which looks very similar to D.Mousmee. I wonder if this species has any imput to this hybrid. A brief description: The flowers are very variable both in colour and size, from very pale, almost white with only a faint touch of pink on the edges of the petals and with just a hint of yellow on the lips, to strong yellow throated lips with intense maroon edges to the lips and petals.
bernabu

just add plot thickener

Submitted by wellsy on Mon, 11/08/2008 - 18:53.

Interesting Bernard but this plant is more like a D. pierardii type plant

A couple of links to compare
http://www.theorchidman.com/imfile/gallery/g0311large.jpg

http://www.theorchidman.com/photo_gallery.htm

Regards wellsy

Interesting

Submitted by mcorchid on Mon, 11/08/2008 - 19:18.

Never heard of this one Bern, not much info around for it either.

There is this one on the Monocot List spelt with 1 T.

Dendrobium gratiosissimum Rchb.f., Bot. Zeitung (Berlin) 23: 99 (1865).

I've had a look at Wellsy's links and think we can discount it as a possible parent.

Bill

Mysterious V

Submitted by mcorchid on Mon, 11/08/2008 - 19:29.

Conclusion to Part Three of the Mousmee saga.

I can safely say that the Mysterious V is in fact Henri Vacherot.

Bill

Den. furcatum...solved????

Submitted by laroche7 on Mon, 11/08/2008 - 16:15.

Hey Steve and Bill , I was just doing a search on Den. furcatum, and the following came up;
New Orchid Hybids List
July - September 2002 Registrations supplied by RHS as International Registration Authority for Orchid Hybrids; in the Registrar's Notes for Dendrobium - species names reviewed, lists
Den. furcatum (syn. Den. amabile; Den. bronckartii).
I found this interesting, in light of Bill's comments, stating that Den. amabile and/or bronckartii, have nothing to do with Den. furcatum.
If this is correct,(I know you'll check this Bill!), then one of my questions will have been answered!
laroche7

the monocot search results for Dendrobium amabile are there already.

So the answer to your question is yes....

Regards wellsy

Dendrobium amabile Schltr., Repert. Spec. Nov. Regni Veg. 8: 505 (1910), nom. illeg.

While the other is talked about by Bill in the comments above.

Dendrobium amabile (Lour.) O'Brien, Gard. Chron., III, 46: 393 (1909).

Regards wellsy